Re: Clothing layers...

[CapnKlutz]

I agree with you there.

I think the basics need finishing off before you venture to further enhancements.
In those basics, I would include layers for clothing as I suggested in my Real World Clothing thread.

Cap'n. 

[woolfe99]

I agree with you there.

I think the basics need finishing off before you venture to further enhancements.
In those basics, I would include layers for clothing as I suggested in my Real World Clothing thread.

Cap'n. 

Absolutely positively.  I forgot to mention that as part of my clothing remarks.  The ability to layer outer clothes over inner clothes is basic functionality.  It isn't especially hard to do either, AFAIK.  We can already layer shoes over a portion of stockings.

And I second your call for "real world clothing."  Every model in a porn movie or sex simulation doesn't have to be dressed in clothes that would get them arrested if they wear it in public.  Sexy clothing that women actually wear IRL can be really hot.

[Jak (ripened peach)]

The ability to layer outer clothes over inner clothes is basic functionality.  It isn't especially hard to do either, AFAIK.  We can already layer shoes over a portion of stockings.

I just wanted to chime in before anyone takes that as gospel.  It is especially hard to do without some pretty heavy coding, modeling, etc. so I don't want people getting the idea that it's something simple to just throw in there.  The shoes and stockings layering is a completely different part of the sim than the clothing.

[woolfe99]

The ability to layer outer clothes over inner clothes is basic functionality.  It isn't especially hard to do either, AFAIK.  We can already layer shoes over a portion of stockings.

I just wanted to chime in before anyone takes that as gospel.  It is especially hard to do without some pretty heavy coding, modeling, etc. so I don't want people getting the idea that it's something simple to just throw in there.  The shoes and stockings layering is a completely different part of the sim than the clothing.

Fair enough.  You know what's involved way better than I do.  Looking forward to seeing the feature whenever it gets implemented!

[Jak (ripened peach)]

Actually, I spoke too soon.  I was just playing around to see if there was a way I could do multiple clothing texture layers without a major hassle, and bam, I found a way.  You can for instance have a bra and panties underneath a shirt and shorts, and take off whichever layer you like.  It works well so far; I'll try to incorporate it into a future update.

[CapnKlutz]

Excellent news, Jak. 

I know it has to be 'walk' before 'run', but any chance of making that 3 available layers on upper torso and 3 on lower torso & legs, please? 

Cap'n.   

[Jak (ripened peach)]

Excellent news, Jak. 

I know it has to be 'walk' before 'run', but any chance of making that 3 available layers on upper torso and 3 on lower torso & legs, please? 

Cap'n.   

I can probably do three, sure.  Can I ask what you would want three for?  Just curious.

[CapnKlutz]

Sure.

I went into it in some detail in the 'Real World Clothing' thread, but to quickly summarise:

3 items are a typical real world scenario.

For example, 3 layers on the upper torso might typically be: Jacket, T-Shirt & bra.
                                                                                         or  Coat, Sweater & bra

On the lower torso / legs it may be: Jeans, pantyhose & panties.
                                                    or  Skirt Stockings & panties.

It offers the potential for quite a variety of clothing.

There could even be full length coats & dresses with appropriate meshes & UV maps.

Once we have tools like that.....

Give us an opportunity to get creative. 

Cap'n.   

[Jak (ripened peach)]

Sure.

I went into it in some detail in the 'Real World Clothing' thread, but to quickly summarise:

3 items are a typical real world scenario.

For example, 3 layers on the upper torso might typically be: Jacket, T-Shirt & bra.
                                                                                         or  Coat, Sweater & bra

On the lower torso / legs it may be: Jeans, pantyhose & panties.
                                                    or  Skirt Stockings & panties.

It offers the potential for quite a variety of clothing.

There could even be full length coats & dresses with appropriate meshes & UV maps.

Cap'n.   

Gotcha.  Ok I've added in the ability to have three total texture (not new meshes) layers on clothing, plus stockings of course.  I haven't changed the meshes, but with extra layers you can at least take things off or put them on as wanted.

Once we have tools like that.....

Give us an opportunity to get creative. 

I found through life as as a creative person that having less options tends to make me even more creative, but that's just me. 

Keep in mind that just because there will be more layers available, that doesn't necessarily mean that people will take advantage of that and make more outfits.  There's enough available in the sim right now that people could get very creative with clothing, but I just don't see anyone really spending any time on that so it's not been something I've felt worth spending any more time on developing.

Hopefully with some new options there will be more people creating more clothes, but I have the feeling it will just be used for layering the existing clothes and not for making totally new outfits.  I hope to be proved wrong on that.  

I haven't added any new clothing meshes so things like jackets will still lie on top of the clothing just as the outfits do now.  It's up to the artist for now to add shadows, etc. to make it look more 3D.  I'd love to see someone come in here and go crazy making new outfits with the tech that's currently available, and if that was the case I'd be more inclined to add additional options like more meshes, etc. down the line.

[CapnKlutz]

OK, I have a question on this layering.

Say we had Jacket, Sweater & bra set up.

Would it be possible to use the same sweater in the 3rd layer over say a T-Shirt & bra?

Cap'n. 

[CapnKlutz]

Gotcha.  Ok I've added in the ability to have three total texture (not new meshes) layers on clothing, plus stockings of course.  I haven't changed the meshes, but with extra layers you can at least take things off or put them on as wanted.

I found through life as as a creative person that having less options tends to make me even more creative, but that's just me. 

Keep in mind that just because there will be more layers available, that doesn't necessarily mean that people will take advantage of that and make more outfits.  There's enough available in the sim right now that people could get very creative with clothing, but I just don't see anyone really spending any time on that so it's not been something I've felt worth spending any more time on developing.

Hopefully with some new options there will be more people creating more clothes, but I have the feeling it will just be used for layering the existing clothes and not for making totally new outfits.  I hope to be proved wrong on that.  

I haven't added any new clothing meshes so things like jackets will still lie on top of the clothing just as the outfits do now.  It's up to the artist for now to add shadows, etc. to make it look more 3D.  I'd love to see someone come in here and go crazy making new outfits with the tech that's currently available, and if that was the case I'd be more inclined to add additional options like more meshes, etc. down the line.

I can see you point of view entirely.

That said, as is, a single layer of clothing on the upper torso is very limiting, as is only having the option for short shorts or short skirt on the lower torso / legs.

I am a complete noob at texturing, but given the tools in terms of meshes & UVMaps I would certainly like to give it a shot.
Equally, I am sure there are other more talented & experienced folk who might be tempted if there were more model options available.

Cap'n. 

[Jak (ripened peach)]

That said, as is, a single layer of clothing on the upper torso is very limiting, as is only having the option for short shorts or short skirt on the lower torso / legs.
Cap'n. 

I just want to make sure we're on the same page here, so I know how to move forward.  When you say "layer", what do you mean by that? 

Currently there is one layer on the clothing mesh.  I have added in the addition of two extra layers, which basically just adds two textures together and lets you decide to take one or the other off.  So for instance, you can have one of the bra and panties sets on, and then layer another outfit like the schoolgirl one over it, and then something over that if you want.

What it doesn't do is add new meshes.  There's no "jacket" mesh, or "pants" mesh, or anything like that.  You're still "stuck" with the single mesh top and short shorts, etc. on the lower legs until I actually create more meshes (if I do at some point).

I personally haven't found it that limiting considering that there are an infinite number of outfits that can be created with the current system.  I'd love to see some good pants outfits, but I also like the ones with shorts or skirts.  They come off pretty quickly anyway, haha.  If I add pants to the sim, it just turns the infinite amount of available outfits into a slightly larger infinite amount.

Like I say, so few people make outfits for Sex Sim that it's been largely up to me to provide them via the store.  Since no one has really shown an interest in making them themselves then I'm not sure if adding more meshes would change that.  People either tend to be interested or not.  I've done a lot of mods, etc. for games and most of the time as a modder you just learn to live with what's available and work within those limits.  That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see more 3D clothing layers added to the sim, but I would like to see people use what is available before I spend too much time adding more.

So basically, if by "layers" you are talking about more meshes, more UV maps, pants, etc. then no, the layers I added won't be anything like that, so it might not be worth my time to finish putting them in after all (coding all the routines for adding a layer in the menu, adding them to the outfit XML files, writing them to the preferences so they load next time, etc. etc.).  If that's the case then I can save time now and maybe make some time to add actual 3D layer meshes some time in the future.

I guess I'm not sure if you're asking for the extra layers more as a user or as a creator.

[woolfe99]

This is great news, adding the ability to layer.

I do somewhat disagree about the issue of adding new meshes.  Adding say pants and skirts does more than just increase the quantity of options.  It adds qualitatively different types of clothing that aren't in the current sim.  That is important, at least for people who want to see the models in those types of clothing.  If you want to see your model in, say, a pair of tight jeans, no amount of texturing the existing meshes is going to give you that. 

Second, I do tend to think it will cause more users to create clothing.  There's only so much you can do by adding textures to the existing meshes and ultimately they start to look samey and there isn't much incentive to create more because adding 100 more texture variants on the same mesh is a diminishing return in variety.  Basically, creative people want more options to work with.

Granted, the main thing holding back the user created clothing is that you just need more people playing the sim.  It's kind of a catch-22 since you need the content to attract more people, but it's the people who create a lot of the content.  Nonetheless, I tend to think that if you build it, they will come.  There are loads of very creative people who design stuff every day for SV2 and I honestly think right now there's some dissatisfaction with the lack of news on a new engine for that sim.  Attracting even a fraction of those people could result in an explosion of user created content.  And for those people who are good at creating content and do a lot of it, their main attraction is doing that and the more options they have creatively, the more interested they will be.

[Jak (ripened peach)]

Ok guys, thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Also...

Granted, the main thing holding back the user created clothing is that you just need more people playing the sim.  It's kind of a catch-22 since you need the content to attract more people, but it's the people who create a lot of the content.

There are over 120,000 registered users as of last count, of which close to 17,000 of them are active users (as in they log in often).  Compare that with this forum which has only 2700 members, with only a fraction of them being vocal about anything. 

Nonetheless, I tend to think that if you build it, they will come.

I built it, and they do come. 

[CapnKlutz]

Additional textures on the same UV map is certainly a good, worthwhile start.

Woolfe's most recent reply has hit it square on the head for me too.

There are only so many things you can do with basically one fixed mesh / UV Map, so that limits the appeal for texturers to get creative.

For instance, as things stand, whilst you can get a decent variety of clothing & looks with the 'top' mesh, (apart from the high neck  ) what you can do with the shorts/skirt area is very limited.

Another issue is the ability to mix & match between outfits.
Without having to use an extra layer, it would be good to be able to use the top from one outfit with the bottom from another.

Some people use SV2 mainly as a creative outlet, once the tools are in place here, there is no reason that that shouldn't start to happen here too.
I see that as something very positive for the development & shelf life of your project here. 

You have a very good basis of a first class virtual world here.
I know you have put a lot of effort into it, it shows, believe me! 
Don't be afraid to let it develop in an area you hadn't perhaps considered before. 

Cap'n.